On this question in the definition phase, somebody noted that "this site is for puzzles, not riddles".
But I'm wondering if, given that a riddle is clear enough in its meaning, and does in fact have a definitive and indisputable answer, whether it could pass for a "puzzle" for the purposes of this website.
Or maybe I'm just getting the definition of "riddle" wrong here. Somebody please advise.
Well, it's about time that I had a voluminous go at this. Many answers here are great, but I feel that the issue is very simple. Riddles are word puzzles of the greatest sort. They simply have one drawback. Anyone can make a horrible riddle; it's stupid easy. Math or science related puzzles as an example require that the puzzlesmith be reasonably competent in a field, whereas a riddler need only type a bit and think himself clever. If riddles are allowed on the site, they are likely to always be the greatest source of crap needing cleanup. I don't dispute this.
Here's why getting rid of riddles is a terrible idea. First, banning them isn't going to get rid of the crappy posts. They'll still come in and need cleanup. I posted riddles because riddles are what I can do. I didn't think to look for a list of acceptable/unacceptable puzzle types and I don't think most people will either. The site's name is Puzzles, not "Some Puzzles Only™." Removing riddles is just going to get rid of the good riddles, riddles that bring an entirely separate intellectual crowd to the site.
I work with math all day on the job. I've got too many math puzzles already. Others simply hate math or lack the skill to enjoy them. Without linguistic puzzles like riddles, this tiny, tiny community is cutting off what I would surmise is its largest potential following. We need riddlers to get out of beta.
I propose two guidelines to keep all puzzles (including riddles) high quality.
First, that brevity is a virtue. Puzzles should be as concise as possible, with length being acceptable where required to exponentially increase the user satisfaction of the puzzle.
Second, that all puzzles fall into three categories, calculation, interpretation, and assumption.
The first category consists only of puzzles with nothing left to interpretation. There is exactly one answer and there can only ever be one right answer. The author is not needed to confirm it, because the answer is obviously the only possible solution once discovered. Even if there are a small number of equally valid calculated answers, it's okay if they're a mark of the answerers' ingenuity rather than the puzzle's poor quality. I don't see many riddles if any at all falling into this category, for they're more likely math/science related. The writers of these puzzles should have the greatest freedom.
The next category is interpretation. People are often going to guess this kind of question wrong, but sometimes in a way that is constructive and fun. A great incorrect answer will fit the majority of criterion, but never all. The correct answer will prove to perfectly fit the criterion presented with few red herrings if any. Good riddles will almost always fall into this category. Interpretation puzzlers should be required to either add a hint to their puzzle, answer it, or confirm an answer right within eight days. Moderators should perhaps warn the puzzler a day before deletion? Unanswered interpretation puzzles that are abandoned should be deleted.
The final category, assumption, can be defined as a puzzle with a low clue to crap ratio or a puzzle whose clues do not lead to a definite answer. Perhaps it could also be defined as a puzzle whose intended answer is not as good as its received answer. These are not puzzles; they are either trollish exercises in self-indulgence or works of people who mean well without the required skill, dedication, or help from the community.
Examples of Calculation Questions:
Examples of Interpretation Questions (yes, they're both mine to speed research time):
Internship Available!* - Figure out what you're being asked to do before you sign up
Speak the Name of the Father! - Name the lord of the gods so that he may yet survive the theomachy
Examples of Assumption Questions:
The old man doesn't like seagull meat
To note on the last group, the murder mystery is simply frustrating nonsense. There is as much of a logical path there as there is from asparagus to KOI-3010.01. The seagull one is fun, but it's less a riddle than a story that makes you guess the ending. If it's that long, it should be a more complex puzzle that requires the length.
In summary, riddles are not the problem, they're a solution to a lot of the site's struggles. Not only will they bring new people in, the terrible riddles are great practice for moderators!
I see this as being the central issue of all of our problems at the moment.
First, let it become clear that a "situation puzzle" is not a "riddle". Please, see here and here. And then please contrast with the the links in this question.
I agree that situation puzzles are not suitable for Puzzling. The reasoning is that there is no single satisfying answer. I also liken these to something like a "playground" joke (called a switcheroo). A riddle, by contrast, does have a single satisfying answer (i.e. the carefully chosen words may have many interpretations, but one and only one set of interpretations lead to a single answer). If a riddle is generating many ridiculous answers then there may be something wrong with the riddle - however I think the problem is insufficient moderation (from the entire community) on the answers. Please look at StackOverflow and tell me that the questions don't attract ridiculous answers (and even for questions that will never be looked at again).
I will strongly state however, that a "real riddle", which is "crafted" should be, not only on-topic, but highly desirable as good quality, original, creative, fun content - which in of expert level (some experts actually write things other than technical dissertations) - and which attracts experts. There is an open question regarding this matter here.
If you disagree then please consider the purpose of beginning this SE. Otherwise, please simply consider the definition of a "Puzzle". I, a member of the English speaking world, hear "puzzle" and I think "riddle". It's just that simple. Not to mention that you can consult any dictionary or encyclopedia to assist with understanding this. Someone described Puzzling as "The perfect intersection between language, psychology and formal technique".
I would like to shift discussion away from this towards, how can we try to "enforce" good riddles as questions, and introduce proper protocols (in the community) to drag down the bad answers (which are the bigger problem) - hint: they usually take the form of guesses.
Please feel free to edit this if I am missing something.
Thank you Joe for raising this topic. Here, for what it's worth, is my two cents:
It would be unfair for some users to impose their personal puzzling preferences on others.
I'm not a big fan of riddles. But if I don't want to see them then I can easily exclude them by adding 'riddles' to my list of ignore tags. I'm not a fan of opera either, but I don't try to prevent my local concert hall from putting on operas - I just don't go to them.
'Puzzling' is a broad church.
The term 'puzzling' is capable of many different interpretations. It's up to us which one we choose. There is no One True Definition that excludes riddles. (I include the definition of 'puzzle' from the Oxford English Dictionary below. I've chosen the OED because it's the most authoritative dictionary I know).
There is no clear definition of 'riddle' as opposed to other kinds of word puzzles. They have a lot in common with crossword clues (particularly cryptic crossword clues) and other kinds of word puzzles. If we institute a 'no riddles' rule then we'll have to deal with the question of what is a riddle and what is not. (d'alar'cop's answer already starts to get into the question of what is a 'real riddle' versus a 'situation puzzle').
Point / counterpoint:
But riddles are poor-quality puzzles.
I don't buy the idea that any one genre of puzzle is inherently superior to any other. If I say that riddles are low-quality, what I really mean is that I don't happen to like them very much. De gustibus non est disputandum.
But riddles attract low-quality answers; they are not a good fit for the SE format because they are open-ended.
I agree that they do seem to attract low-quality answers. I don't think this is a reason for banning the whole genre of question - rather, we should be deleting the low-quality answers. I am in favour of deleting answers (in every puzzling genre) which don't include an explanation of their method.
But the people who proposed the site on Area 51 did not intend for riddles to be part of it.
Fairness demands that the views of all members of the community ought to carry equal weight, whether that member is new to the site or was involved with the private beta, and regardless of reputation points. Times change.
But the rest of Stack Exchange doesn't like them.
So (in my opinion) we should not ban riddles; instead we should work to improve question quality and answer quality in riddles, as we should in all genres. The best way to do this is for our riddle-enthusiasts to lead by example in posting high-quality riddles (which I am seeing them doing at the moment - in general I find riddles boring but we've actually had some lately that are starting to change my mind).
I hope people find that helpful and thought-provoking. I'm not trying to misrepresent or 'straw man' any of the counter-arguments, so if you think I have misunderstood them or missed an important facet of them then please (politely) let me know in the comments and I'll amend this post to reflect my (hopefully) improved understanding. (Or I'll completely reverse my position if the arguments are convincing!).
Appendix 1: OED Definition of 'puzzle' (noun)
The state or condition of being puzzled; bewilderment, bafflement, confusion; perplexity as to how to act or decide; an instance of this. Now usually to be in a puzzle : to be in a state of bewilderment or confusion.
A puzzling or perplexing question; a difficult problem; a person who or thing which is hard to understand, an enigma.
†3. Short for puzzle-peg n. 1. Obs. [obsolete]
- Something devised or made for the purpose of testing one's ingenuity, knowledge, patience, etc.; a toy or problem of this kind. Sometimes with modifying word specifying the type of puzzle, as Chinese, crossword, jigsaw puzzle, etc.: see the first element.
"puzzle, n." OED Online. Oxford University Press, September 2014. Web. 20 November 2014.
I like TheDoctor's suggestion, but I think there's a situation when the asker can ask for answer of the riddle: when they don't know the answer.
Such question should be tagged properly (say, canonical-answer-required), and then it's not about a challenge or a guessing game. The correct answer should require an authoritative source (say, the author), and just 'wild guess' or 'it fits' answers should not be accepted.
Examples:
Q: Why is a raven like a writing desk?
A: This is a riddle by Lewis Carroll, posed in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. Originally, Lewis Carroll didn't intend it to possess an answer, but when badgered about it, he came up with two: “Because it can produce a few notes, tho they are very flat; and it is nevar put with the wrong end in front!”
Q: Thirty white horses on a red hill,
First they champ,
Then they stamp,
Then they stand still.
A: This riddle was posed in The Hobbit, by J.R.R. Tolkien, during the riddle contest between Bilbo Baggins and Gollum. The answer given in the book is Teeth.
If the riddle has clear, unambigous answer, which is based, for example, on the double meaning of some words, it should be on topic.
For example:
What have face, hands, no legs, but yet can run?
It's a clock, because the words face, hands and to run have the second meaning specific to the clocks. Theoretically, such riddles could be solved by an advanced computer program with semantic analysis capabilities.
The few riddles i've seen posted so far are generally too open-ended, unclear, or are too well-known to ask. I think our policy should be:
No riddles asked as challenges. You can ask a riddle as an advice question (i.e. "How can i make this riddle better?")
